Turbo benzinci vs turbo dizeli

[ftj]

Moze toliki gubitak al eventualno na 4x4.

[methane.master]

Dragane pa ovo je od nekog drugog klia , ne tvoj

Naravno. Njegov je u stvari 1,2 16V

[trojanac]

Koliko priče, počeo sam da preskačem strane, ne mogu sve da čitam.
Da sad kupujem polovnjaka gledao bi benzinca, a ne bi bežao ni od dizela. Zavisi sta bi se sve našlo u ponudi. Oba sistema su dobra i za prosečnog vozača završavaju sve potrebe. A troškovi su uvek diskutabilni i zavise od modela, održavanja i drugih faktora. Teško je proglasiti pobednika iako su turbo benzinci sve bliže turbo dizelima, to se ne moze osporiti. Videćemo šta donosi budućnost.

Sent from my HTC Desire 500 using Tapatalk

[nidza]

Porast broja motora sa turbom:


Udeo benzinaca sa turbom i dalje jako mali i 2010:


Svi će imati turbo kroz koju godinu, tako da se to pitanje više neće ni postavljati.

[moimoi]

@moimoi
Ovo nema veze sa zivotom, ali bas nikakve i toga je svestan svako lo je vozio bilo kakav slican automobil.

Naravno da nema, to je potrošnja koju je auto ostvario tog dana na testu. Golfovi su voženi istog dana i u istim uslovima.

Sportska vožnja ovima u AMuS.de verovatno nije trkanje ili u svakoj brzini ići u crveno, već neka malo agresivnija vožnja. Naravno da je jasno da svi mogu potrošiti dosta više. Poenta je bila da procentualna razlika u povećanju potrošnje nije toliko različita koliko je goblin predstavljao 20% prema 100% (dizel - benzin)

Kako nema, vidis da jaguar 2.0d 180ks trosi malo manje od golfa 1.0b 115ks

2.0 dizel je težak 1650kg, a 1.0 trocilindraš 1225kg.

Da se razumemo, nerealni su i podaci za dizele... 8l sportske voznje? Ma vazi, ako pod sportskim mislimo samo na brzu promenu brzine na 2-2.5k rpma

Možda su išli i do 3k rpm, ali ipak je to skroz nov motor, ekonomičniji turbo (nova generacija), 8-stepeni automatik. Ipak bi trebalo da je malo štedljiviji od tvoje C klase.

Cuti, vidi tek Charger, i to stari motor, 3600 kubika atmo trosi 13.5l sportskom voznjom...Amerika je to

Jeste da nema DI ili turbo, ali nije baš star. Motor je iz 2010 godine. A i pri 140 km/h se vrti na 1750rpm a na 160km/h na 2000 rpm.

Ko god je vozio snaznije benzince vrlo dobro zna sta ga ceka na pumpi kada krene da ga forsira.
Npr. deklarisana potrosnja 12L a na pumpi nakon forsiranja fali preko 20L, apsolutno normalna situacija.

Ma može i 40L da potroši, ali je moja poenta da pri sličnom forsiranju neće procentualna razlika biti značajna kao što si naveo 20% prema 100% kod benzinaca.
Ali nije OK poređenje ako benzinca forsiraš i ideš do 200km/h (ili od 100-200km/h) za neko vreme X, a onda isto forsiraš dizela koji ubrza do istih brzina za 1,5X ili 2X i onda kažeš da potrošnja kod benzinaca se povećava mnogo više.

OK benzinac ima deklarisanu potrošnju 12L, a posle forsiranja potrošio 20L. To je ok, to je 66% više. Ako možeš samo da daš i primer nekog dizela koji ti je nakon forsiranja potrošio 10-20% više u odnosu na deklarisanu potrošnju. A imamo i onaj primer što sam dao - X6 3.0D deklarisana 6.0, a pri sportskoj (AMuS sportska vožnja, za koju smo zaključili i da nije baš nešto sportska) 10,8L, što je 80% više od deklarisane.

Dizeli su u svetu globalno posmatrano marginalni deo trzista, samo u Evropi jos dizeli imaju znacajan udeo.
SAD, Kanada, Japan, Kina, Afrika, Australija (TNG zemlja), bliski istok, Brazil (zemlja alkohola) su primeri gde benzinci u raznim podvarijantama dominiraju.

Sa novim, planiranim Euro 7, veliko je pitanje kakav ce i u Evropi biti status dizela posle 2020.

Zato što su u Evropi benzinci u neravnopravnom položaju. Kad bi bili fer uslovi bilo bi mnogo više benzinaca.
Potrebno je samo da Evropa prestane sa subvencionisanjem dizela i da primeni nivoe emisije N0x koje sama propisuje, jer je poznato da dizeli još od EURO2 standarda emituju mnogo više nego što je deklarisano. Džaba i EURO7 ako nastave igranku da je npr. na testu EURO6 a u vožnji EURO3.
Možda će VW-ova američka NOx afera pokrenuti neke stvari i u Evropi.
http://www.transportenvironment.org/New ... ling-tests
http://www.theicct.org/sites/default/fi ... 141013.pdf
http://ec.europa.eu/environment/air/pdf ... 121128.pdf

Realno su dizeli danas komoleksniji sa ovim adblue kircima i dpfom i svime...

Ali bili bi još kompleksniji (i skuplji) kad bi EURO6 dizeli stvarno zadovoljili EURO6 standard umesto što su muljanjem u stvari EURO3.

[Xepoj87]

Pa nisu, zato je i stavljen adblue, da bi ispunili euro6 standard.
Rekli bi Amerikanci da je jos neko varao, ne verujem da su stidljivi

Jedino VW satro uspeo i bez adblue, pa se sada vidi i kako


Pazi, uzmemo moj auto 2.2 cdi, 190ks i uzmemo recimo DayWalkerovu Astru 1.6T 180ks.
Idu otprilike isto, oko 8 do 100, mozda je moj i brzi malcice.

Moj ce meni divljanjem u gradu dici sa 8l, na 11-12l.
Daywalkerova astra ce takvim rezimom da mi trosi, umesto 10l, jedno 18l.
Vozio sam identicnu c klasu kao moju, samo 180 turbo benzinac i potrosnja mi je bila 18l.

Nije bitno samo procentualno, bitno je kolicinski koliko ce manje dizel trositi divljanjem.
Evo Goblinovof primera A8 4.2 tdi, koji ke malcice i brzi od A8 4.2 benzinca, a trosi 9.5l poslednjih 50k km. Mislis da benzincu nije 50% vise?
Tu je 50% 5l, a kada se i dizel i benzin dupliraju gazenjem, razlika bude 10l, a procentualno isto

Sent from my Sony

[Milos]

Tebi je cipovan auto

[dragvorl]

Moze i bez Adblue da se postigne zadovoljenje Nox emisije, to se zove Nox trap, imali su ga i VW i Renault i Volvo, a verovatno ce se sve vise koristiti u buducnosti jer je jeftiniji i bez odrzavanja i aditiva.

[dag81]

Sta mu dodje Nox trap?

P.S. NasO.
Послато са LG-D855 уз помоћ Тапатока

[Xepoj87]

Dragvorl, jel samo nox bitan za euro6? I kako ga to vw imao, a sada ga nema?

Sent from my Sony

[nidza]

Imao ga je jer su falsifikovali test.

Euro je svašta nešto, ne samo Nox. I CO2 i druge stvari.

Tapatalk

[Geza]

BMW koristi NOx Storage Catalyst kao deo DPF-a.

[nidza]

An efficient technology to abate NOx in diesel engines, for those applications in which it can be applied, is the NOx Storage Converter (NSC). The exhaust system includes a specific catalyst which is able to periodically store NOx molecules; when the catalyst is saturated it is regenerated through proper engine control strategies, which transform NOx in N2. This device can be integrated with the low pressure EGR technology.

Na neki način zadržava molekule NOx i pretvara ih u N2 uz pomoć motora. Kako? Pojma nemam, probaću da saznam.

edit: tu izi
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RR2KjnIXYNw

[DasAuto]

Four more carmakers join diesel emissions row
Mercedes-Benz, Honda, Mazda and Mitsubishi’s cars are shown to emit significantly more
NOx pollution on the road than in regulatory tests.

Mercedes-Benz, Honda, Mazda and Mitsubishi have joined the growing list of manufacturers whose diesel cars are known to emit significantly more pollution on the road than in regulatory tests, according to data obtained by the Guardian.

In more realistic on-road tests, some Honda models emitted six times the regulatory limit of NOx pollution while some unnamed 4x4 models had 20 times the NOx limit coming out of their exhaust pipes.

“The issue is a systemic one” across the industry, said Nick Molden, whose company Emissions Analytics tested the cars. The Guardian revealed last week that diesel cars from Renault, Nissan, Hyundai, Citroen, Fiat, Volvo and Jeep all pumped out significantly more NOx in more realistic driving conditions. NOx pollution is at illegal levels in many parts of the UK and is believed to have caused many thousands of premature deaths and billions of pounds in health costs.

All the diesel cars passed the EU’s official lab-based regulatory test (called NEDC), but the test has failed to cut air pollution as governments intended because carmakers designed vehicles that perform better in the lab than on the road. There is no evidence of illegal activity, such as the “defeat devices” used by Volkswagen.

The new data is from Emissions Analytics’ on-the-road testing programme, which is carefully controlled and closely matches the real-world test the European commission wants to introduce. The company tested both Euro 6 models, the newest and strictest standard, and earlier Euro 5 models. Data showed that:

Mercedes-Benz’s diesel cars produced an average of 0.406g/km of NOx on the road, at least 2.2 times more than the official Euro 5 level and five times higher than the Euro 6 level. A spokesman for Mercedes-Benz said: “Since real-world driving conditions do not generally reflect those in the laboratory, the consumption figures may differ from the standardised figures.”
Honda’s diesel cars emitted 0.484g/km of NOx on average, between 2.6 and six times the official levels. A spokesman for Honda said: “Honda tests vehicles in accordance with European legislation.”
Mazda’s diesel cars had average NOx emissions of 0.293g/km in the real world, between 1.6 and 3.6 times the NEDC test levels. One Euro 6 model, the Mazda 6 2.2L 5DR, produced three times the official NOx emissions. A spokesman for Mazda said: “In compliance with the law, Mazda works hard to ensure that every petrol and diesel engine it makes fully complies with the regulations.”

Mitsubishi diesel cars produced an average of 0.274g/km of NOx, between 1.5 and 3.4 higher than in the lab. “The NEDC was never intended to represent real-world driving,” said a spokesman for Mitsubishi.
The Emissions Analytics data seen by the Guardian also found Citroen, VW and Audi NOx emissions to be higher on the road than in the EU lab test.

Molden said Emissions Analytics had analysed about 50 Euro 6 diesels and 150 Euro 5 diesels, with only five having real-world NOx levels that matched the regulatory test. The failure of the EU’s NOx test to limit real-world emissions, and tackle air pollution, has been known for some years, but specific manufacturers have not been named.

“The VW issue in the US was purely the trigger which threw light on a slightly different problem in the EU - widespread legal over-emissions,” Molden said. “For NOx, [diesel] cars are on average four times over the legal limit, because of the lenient nature of the test cycle in the EU.” The Emissions Analytics tests showed 4x4s to have the highest NOx emissions, with several unnamed models emitting 15 times official levels and one more than 20 times.

“MEPs have been fighting for years to reform EU rules on diesel emissions-testing so they reflect real-world emissions. Yet the powerful car lobby and national governments have fiercely resisted these life-saving changes,” said Catherine Bearder, a LibDem MEP and a lead negotiator in the European parliament on the EU’s new air quality law. “The people of Europe have waited long enough for cleaner air, they must not be made to wait any longer.”

Friends of the Earth air pollution campaigner Jenny Bates said: “With further manufacturers implicated, this is yet more evidence that this scandal goes way beyond VW, and should cause decisionmakers to question the very future of diesel vehicles on our roads. This is a massive public health disgrace and the failure to prevent vehicles breaking pollution rules will have cost lives.”

Two car companies, Mercedes and Honda, said that they supported a tightening of the regulations. “Mercedes-Benz emphatically supports the introduction of the WLTP test [which] is designed to supersede the NEDC, with the goal of bringing standardised and real-world consumption closer together,” said the spokesman. “To this end, we actively support the dialogue between industry (through trade group ACEA [European Automobile Manufacturers Association]) and the authorities.” Honda said it supported “additional testing in order to help strengthen regulatory and consumer confidence”.

However, in a letter seen by Reuters to EU officials, the ACEA chairman and Renault chief executive, Carlos Ghosn, said that no significant progress on NOx was possible before 2019. Reuters said that ACEA, which lobbies for Europe’s carmakers in Brussels, told the officials on 1 October that the NOx limit for a new, more realistic test should be 70% higher than today’s limit. An ACEA spokeswoman said it was “too early in the process to confirm or comment on hypothetical figures.”

“These new test results [from Emissions Analytics] prove that the Volkswagen scandal is just the tip of the iceberg. What we are seeing here is a dieselgate that covers many brands and many different car models,” said Greg Archer, an emissions expert at Transport & Environment. “The only solution is a strict new test that takes place on the road and verified by an authority not paid by the car industry.”

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/ ... ?CMP=fb_gu

[nmaric1993]

Pa znaci lazu svi Koji jos onda proizvodjac ima a da ne laze? Avtovaz Onaj dizel iz samare
Pa od proizvodjaca dizela onda ostao samo Isuzu i Toyota