Vazduhoplovi

[zuzazu]

U slucaju manual reversion, tj gubika kompletnog hidro sistema, sila na komandama je toliko jaka da je vrlo tesko pilotirati avionom.

Normalno se leti sa jednom rukom na volanu, a drugom na gasu. Medjutim, u ovom slucaju je problem drzati komande i sa dve ruke (drugi pilot moze da izigrava autothrottle podesavajuci gas).

Za zenu prakticno nemoguce, tako da prica o ravnopravnosti, jednostavno ne pije vodu.

Kod fly by wire aviona, mogu prihvatiti da je situacija drugacija.

Evo copy paste sa jednog sajta:

I've flown the 737 for 10 years altogether. I was shocked at how difficult manual reversion actually is. Nothing to do with stick and rudder skills, it feels like nothing like it. This is an emergency 'try and keep flying' procedure. Control is VERY difficult, I think impossible to do any more than simply keep flying. Even a very experienced 737 pilot would be hard pressed to actually even hit the runway, let alone 'land' IMO. I think it is effectively only an airborne process to keep flying. As for landing, I do not think you should expect to remain in one piece and walk away from it.

It remains an extremely unlikely probability. Many twins have no manual reversion at all, so at least the 737 gives you a chance....but no more than that! It's impossible to explain what it feels like to a non pilot. I just think your odds of survival are fairly low when you come to try and place it on the ground.

Evo i snimka sa simulatora. Poslusajte komentare. Vidi se da je avion trom na komande, tj. vidi se da je dat otklon u jednu a avion je u nagibu na drugu stranu. Takodje se moze videti da pilot drzi volan sa dve ruke

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSmGV4ofSXQ

[Heineken]

http://www.blic.rs/Vesti/Svet/432967/Dr ... i-poginuli
:trljamoci:

[dragan]

Vecinom su ljudi iz kontrole napravili korak prema pilotazi, niko od pilota nije otisao u kontrolu, a neki uspesno sede na obe stolice (Ivan).

Sreca je sto ce tvoj kolega imati dva zanata u ruci...

da, ivan je jako redak primer, a ovaj moj drugar je leteo sa njim, ako znas ivana i komuniciras sa njim znace o kome se radi
u istoj grupi je i ivanov sin...inace sam cuo da za tu grupu veze bas i nisu "radile", i drago mi je ako je to istina. tako i treba da bude sa tako ozbiljnim zanimanjem...

inace, stvarno je retko da se od pilota svojevoljno postane kontrolor, i vise se ide u drugom smeru. sa jedne strane to je normalno, jer je profesija pilota, jasno, mnogo atraktivnija, ali ako se nastavi ovakav trend kakav @zuzazu opisuje, trend devalvacije pilotske profesije, ne znam kako ce i dalje biti. u svakom slucaju, lakse je zavoleti i hteti da budes pilot nego kontrolor. meni licno nimalo nije zao sto sam tu gde sam jer mi je pocetna prica bila okrenuta u smeru vojnog pilota, sto je nesto sto sam zeleo od malih nogu, ali to nazalost kod nas nema nekog smisla. zato je drugar iz price i otisao...

[zuzazu]

Popa znam, a za ovu dvojcu sam cuo da je tako kao sto kazes...

I dalje mu je bolja smatsa, al polako.......

[cozmo]

For Gods sake

http://avherald.com/h?article=46c3abde/0009&opt=0

Crash: LAM E190 over Botswana/Namibia on Nov 29th 2013, captain intentionally crashed aircraft
By Simon Hradecky, created Wednesday, Jan 8th 2014 12:40Z, last updated Thursday, Jan 9th 2014 09:04Z

On Jan 8th 2014 The Aviation Herald received the preliminary report from Namibia's Investigator in Charge under the condition to not publish the 2 page report signed on Dec 18th 2013.

The preliminary report states the aircraft carried 28 passengers and 6 crew and was enroute at FL380 in contact with Gaborone Area Air Traffic Control. Radar data show that after passing the mandatory reporting point EXEDU (position S18.9333 E22.4666, 55.7nm south of crash site) in Gaborone FIR the aircraft "commenced a sudden descent" from FL380. Radar and voice contact was lost.

The report states (begin of quote):

1. the aircraft was operating at normal conditions and no mechanical faults were detected.

2. Minutes before the crash the F/O (first officer) left the cockpit for the lavatory and only the captain remained on the Flight Deck.

3. The altitude was manually selected three times from 38000 feet to the final 592 feet (below ground elevation).

4. Auto throttle was manually reengaged and throttle level automatically retarded and set to idle.

5. The Airspeed was manually selected several times until the end of the recording, which remained close to Vmo (maximum operating speed limit).

6. The speed brake handle parameter indicates it was commanded to open the spoiler panels and remained in this position until the end of the recording. This was manually commanded as the parameter monitors the handle position.

7. During all these actions there was audible low and high chimes as well as repeated banging an indication for call to enter the cockpit.

Conclusion:

All action observed from the recorders requires knowledge of the aircraft's automatic flight systems as the entire descent was performed with the autopilot engaged. This displays a clear intent. The reason for all these actions is unknown and the investigation is still ongoing.

End of quote.

[zuzazu]

Kapetan se samoubio? Kopilot izasao do wc-a, a ovaj se zakljucao i surduknuo avion sa maksimalnom brzinom Vmo i izvucenim speedbrake...

Inace, procedure kazu da se tada vrata kokpita ostavljaju zatvorena ali otkljucana, ili u kokpit ulazi jedan od kabinskog osoblja dok se pilot ne vrati u kokpit.

I tako dodjes na gejt, sve u uniformi, a panduri izuvaju posadu i trkeljisu po torbama trazeci nesto od oruzija sto samo oni znaju sta. Jos jedan dokaz da niko ne moze spreciti sofera u nameri da rokne sebe ili putnike i avion.

[Cica Maca]

Ja ne bih seo u avion kojim upravlja bivši vojni pilot (ha, kad bih mogao da znam ko pilotira). Plašim se scenarija kao sa Aviogenexovim Tu-134 1971. kod Rijeke. Oni u kritičnim situacijama mogu u trenutku da pomisle "sad ću da mu roknem forsaž i izvlačim se sigurno"... a onda shvate da nema forsaža, da je avion velik i da ima mali odnos potisak/težina. I zakucaju se u zemlju.

Deo izvestaja o padu doticnog aviona. Izdanje United Kingdom Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB), necu kaciti fotke i skice vec samo cist tekst.

...

Crew information
The pilot-in-command, Milo~ Marki6evi6, aged 41, held an
airline transport pilot's licence No. 90/2194 valid unti118 June 1971,
with IFR rating and special rating for long ranged flights. He passed
his last medical examination on 26 November 1970. He had flown a
total of 87 flights totalling 138 hours and 50 minutes on the TU-134A
aircraft. On all other types of aircraft he had flown, until 23 May 1971
a total of 9. 230 flights or 6. 987 hours respectively.


Nema pomena o prethodnom angazovanju kod civilne ili "vojne" kompanije.

...

Aircraft information
The TU-134A aircraft has been designed in accordance with the USSR
regulations. The aircraft represented a modified series aircraft
of TU-134 made with the aim to improve the operational characteristics,
increase the number of seats and to ensure autonomy during ground
maintenance. For that purpose the fuselage of TU-134 has been
extended for 2. 322 m. MTOW has bt.en increased to 47 tons and
LW has been increased from 40 to 43 tons while forward position of
the center of gravity has been moved from 26% to 21% MAC. New
engines D30 series II, have been installed with thrust reverse and
auxiliary power unit (APU).
The TU-134A aircraft serial number 1205 was bought and imported
as a new one on 23 April 1971. Main inspection was performed
on 27 April 1971. Certificate of Airworthiness was issued with
validity until 27 April 1972. During manufacturer's tests the aircraft
had flown 4 flights or 9 hours and during airline operation it had
flown 102 hours in 43 flights. Checking the documentation it was
noted that during operation the aircraft had not experienced
any significant failures or damage. On the basis of crew
members statements, tape recordings of air traffic control
and the inspection of aircraft wreckage it was noted that during
the flight the aircraft had been in good technical condition.
On the basis of weight and balance (loadsheet and calculations),
at the moment of accident center of gravity was 29o/o MAC with
landing weight of aircraft LW= 39. 290 kg including approximately
4. 000 kg of fuel.

...

CONCLUSION
a) Findings
1) The crew were properly certificated.
2) The aircraft was certificated and maintained in accordance with
the existing regulations.
3) The crew planned a flight from London (Gatwick) England to
Rijeka - Yugoslavia.
4) All over Europe the weather situation was unstable with
thunderstorms.
5) Radio communications with Air Traffic Control were maintained
all the time and were good except for minor disturbances
due to rain.
6) Air Traffic Control provided all necessary information
including the meteorological information for the approach
of the aircraft to the "Rijeka" airport.
7) At "Rijeka" airport the pilot started the ILS approach normally,
with the flight director system on.
8) Four kilometres from the runway threshold, at a height of
300 m (sea level) the aircraft entered into a heavy rain shower.
The crew immediately activated the wipers and during the
flight through rain slight turbulence was felt.
9) Fifty seconds before the touchdown the aircraft was carried
upwards and rolled to the right which interupted the ILS approach.
1 0) Until the middle marker, the crew, fiying through rain, was
endeavouring to align the aircraft with the runway centre line
and succeded in doing so.
11) The aircraft was above the glide path though the crew endeavoured
to reduce the height by applying down elevator and reducing
the power.
12) The latter part of the flightpath was associated with a reduction
in speed and a steep angle of descent.
13) It is concluded that during the entire approach in the intense
rain, and due to the refraction of light, the pilot had an
optical illusion that he was closer to the runway and at
a greater height above it than was in fact the case.
14) The aircraft touched down on the runway at a speed of 260 km/h.
15) After the heavy landing the right wing broke off and then
during the inversion of the aircraft the tail surfaces broke
and twisted and the tail cone was partially destroyed.
16) From the ruptured right wing the fuel spilled on the runway and
immediately was set on fire by sparks which resulted from
the contact of the flaps with the runway.
17) After separation the right wing and tail continued to move
in a streight line and stopped in flames on the runway.
Airborne fire- fighting system for extinguishing the fire
on the engines had been activated and prevented fire in
the engines.
18) The fuselage with the left wing became inverted at a speed
of over 200 km/h and slid along the runway for a distance
of some 700 m. , while the passengers baggage fell out of
the rear freight hold. After that, the fuselage with the left'
wing veered off the runway to the right, when it passed off
the runway it turned through an angle of 180° and soon
afterwards stopped.
19) After the aircraft had stopped, four crew members managed
to leave the aircraft using a cockpit window and one passenger
jumped out through a hole in the rear part of the fuselage.
20) Fire- fighting team and other participants in the rescue arrived at
the accident site within one minute after the aircraft had
stopped.
21) The rescue team and survived crew members has concentrated
their efforts to open the main and service doors and to cut
the fuselage by a motor saw. Due to the aircraft attitude and
many other circumstances already described in the report,
they did not manage to do so.
22) The fire-fighting team consisted of 9 firemen, surviving
crew members and other persons who were present at the site.
Nevertheless, the aircraft and passengers were burned in
the fire as previously described.


b) Probable cause of the accident
It is considered that the probable main cause of the accident of
the TU-134A aircraft, registration marks YU-AHZ, which occured
on the 23rd May, 1971, at "Rijeka" airport was a heavy landing
on the right leg of the main landing gear, emphasised by an irregular
position of the wheels and 0. 7% slope up of the runway at
the point of touchdown.
The Commission consider that the described deviation from
the flight tehnique in itself, did not cause the crash of the
aircraft, but that loading which resulted from the conditions under
which the landing was performed made a greater contribution to
the crash.
However, non- adequate handling of controls of the aircraft and
engines could be explained only by false perceptions (illusions)
of the crew concerning the aircraft position in respect to the
runway.
The last minute of the flight was analysed on the basis of:
- flight recorder oscillogram
- results obtained during the investigation on the flight
on board of the same type of aircraft.
- study of aerodynamic characteristics and stability of
TU-134A
- analysis of meteorological situation
- analysis of crew members' statement
According to the opinion of the Commission this was an exceptional
and complex case of many unfavourable circumstances which
resulted in this catastrophy.


Podvuceno i podebljano napisano OPTICKA ILUZIJA koja nije retka ni kod pesaka a kamoli kod pilota zbog trece dimenzije. Slicna situacija je lepo opisana u 7 epizodi 4 sezone serije Mayday ("Vertigo" Flash Airlines Flight 604
On 3 January 2004, just after take-off, Flash Airlines Flight 604 banked to the right and crashed, killing 148 people. The cause of this disaster is disputed and suggested to be vertigo disorientation on the part of the flight crew.) Evo linka sa wikija ko hoce da procita.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_Airlines_Flight_604

[zuzazu]

@Maco, ne znam zasto komplikujes stvari. Upravo je onako kako sam (skraceno i uprosceno) napisao.

The Tu-134 approached Rijeka (RJK) in poor weather with heavy cumulo-nimbus, heavy rainfall and severe turbulence about 4km from the runway threshold. As the aircraft passed through the area, it was carried upwards and rolled to the right. The aircraft was now above the ILS glide path. Some 800m short of the runway, at a height of 60m the crew decided to continue the approach. Power was reduced and the angle of descent increased to 10 degrees. The aircraft struck the runway with the right main gear at an airspeed of 160km/h with 4g deceleration force. The right wing detached and the plane rolled on its back. The remaining stub of wing folded to block the overwing emergency exit. The aircraft slid for 700m and caught fire.

PROBABLE CAUSE:
It is considered that the probable main cause of the accident of the TU-134A aircraft, registration marks YU-AHZ, which occured on the 23rd May, 1971, at "Rijeka" airport was a heavy landing on the right leg of the main landing gear, emphasised by an irregular position of the wheels and 0.7% slope up of the runway at the point of touchdown.
The Commission consider that the described deviation from the flight tehnique in itself, did not cause the crash of the aircraft, but that loading which resulted from the conditions under which the landing was performed made a greater contribution to the crash.
However, non-adequate handling of controls of the aircraft and engines could be explained only by false perceptions (illusions) of the crew concerning the aircraft position in respect to the runway.
The last minute of the flight was analysed on the basis of:
- flight recorder oscillogram
- results obtained during the investigation on the flight on board of the same type of aircraft.
- study of aerodynamic characteristics and stability of TU-134A - analysis of meteorological situation
- analysis of crew members' statement
According to the opinion of the Commission this was an exceptional and complex case of many unfavourable circumstances which resulted in this catastrophy.

- Od prve recenice tvoga teksta da je kapetan imao samo 130 sati na ovom tipu aviona i 87 letova

- Preko Cb i svih meteo pojava koje nosi ovaj tip oblaka a koje svaki pilot uci u skoli

- Odstupanja od tehnike pilotiranja - vec su stavke pod 8), 9), 10), 11), 12) bile dovoljan signal za uzbunu, a mogu svaku potanko da ti analiziram

- Do poslednje recenice ovog teksta "this was an exceptional and complex case of many unfavourable circumstances which resulted in this catastrophy", a to je u prevodu na srpski "jedno sranje nikad ne ide samo", tako da to sto je podvuceno nije uzrok nesrece vec grubo sletanje sto ces naci svuda na internetu

- Inace u to vreme nije ni bio poznat CRM a koji je kasnije napravljen da bi se upravo ovako ponasanje u kokpitu smanjilo/onemogucilo/sprecilo

O ovome udesu bih mogao mnogo vise da kazem, jer sam slusao Cavajdinu pricu, ali bolje da cutim... a ova engleska 00 za bubrege uzmi samo informativno, i citaj malo izmedju redova.

A mani se i serija o udesima, jer nakon opisa nesrece u Bangaloru (Nacionalna Geografija) koju je izazvao nas kapetan, 100% ti tvrdim da lazu/precutkuju istinu...

[Cica Maca]

Deo izvestaja o padu doticnog aviona. Izdanje United Kingdom Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB)... dakle samo deo zvanicnog izvestaja. Deo prliza je tvoja nadleznost, necu da ulazim u nju jer bas i nisam kompetentan. Da ga je bacio na beton i izlomio, slazem se jer stvarno, tu rusku strvinu mozes samo tako da izlomis. Vertikalna brzina je SIGURNO bila preko 5m/s a to je projekciona maksimalna vertikalna za mornaricu, tj. za sletanje na nosac aviona. Uporedi stajni trap F-18 i F-16!

Pre 134A, Aviogenex je koristio 134 (konkretno, trebalo bi da je 134A3) pa za kopilota kaze izvestaj sledece:
The co-pilot, Stevan Mandc, aged 34, held a senior commercial
pilot's licence No 263/3799 with a rating for co-pilot on board the
aircraft TU-134 A, valid until 20 November 1971. He also held an
IFR rating. He passed his last medical examination on 19 May 1971,
As a co-pilot and as a holder of commercial pilot's licence he had
flown 899 hours on TU-134 and TU-134A. Until the accident he had
flown a total of 2563 flights or 2400 hours respectively.

Uostalom, moraju da zamazu oci kod kuce, u avionu su bili njihovi ljudi (turisti) JJ130 Getvik-Rijeka (Krk).

[Dzoni_m]

A mani se i serija o udesima, jer nakon opisa nesrece u Bangaloru (Nacionalna Geografija) koju je izazvao nas kapetan, 100% ti tvrdim da lazu/precutkuju istinu...

Koja je to epizoda? Ne secam se da je je Mayday imao tu epizodu. Moze makar naziv? Ni broj leta, ni mesto nesrece mi ne daju nista u pretrazi po epizodama.

[zuzazu]

To je valjda Air Crash Investigations, nisam je uhvatio od pocetka, a i da jesam ne pamtim kako se zove. Moja je greska nije Bangalore vec Mangalore



Air India Express Flight 812 was a scheduled passenger service from Dubai to Mangalore which at around 01:00 UTC on 22 May 2010,overshot the runway on landing, fell over a cliff and caught fire, spreading wreckage across the surrounding hillside. Of the 160 passengers and six crew members on board, only eight passengers survived.

With its 158 fatalities, the accident was the third deadliest aviation disaster in India, after the 1996 Charkhi Dadri mid-air collision which killed 349, and the 1978 crash of Air India Flight 855, which killed 213. It marked the first major Indian aviation accident since the July 2000 crash of Alliance Air Flight 7412 in Patna.The accident is the deadliest crash of a 737 aircraft (all series) and the eighth hull loss of a Boeing 737–800 aircraft.The crash caused the highest number of aviation fatalities in 2010 and was the second of the year to involve a 737–800.It was also the second time that an aircraft had overshot a runway at Mangalore.

The accident involved a Boeing 737-800NG aircraft, one of Boeing's 737 Next Generation series, with aircraft registration VT–AXV and manufacturer's serial number 36333, line number 2481. The aircraft first flew on 20 December 2007 with the Boeing test registration N1787B and was delivered on 18 January 2008. Commanded by Captain Zlatko Glušica, the remaining crew consisted of first officer H. S. Ahluwalia and four cabin attendants. Glušica (a former employee of Jat Airways of Serbia), a British and Serbian national with over 10,000 hours of flying and over 7,500 hours of command experience, and Ahluwalia (a former employee of Jet Airways who joined Air India Express in April 2009) were both killed in the incident Both pilots were based in Mangalore.

[Dzoni_m]

Izgleda da nije Air Crash investigation. Ovde su liste svih epizoda http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Mayday_episodes

Ima jos jedna slicna serija, ne znam cija je produkcija i za te se slazem, bukvano svaka cinjenica je izvrnuta u odnosu na zvanican izvestaj. Teraju neku svoju politiku.

[zuzazu]

Gledao sam je mozda pre nekih 6 meseci. Dok su ostale reprizirane milion puta ovu sam video samo jednom. Sudim da je jedna iz poslednje produkcije...

[Heinz]

Preusmereni letovi za Beograd u Podgoricu zbog magle http://blic.rs/i/433517

TT

[zuzazu]

Juce je bas bilo gadno. Svi aerodromi u okruzenju su imali low visibility sem Podgorice koja je bila CAVOK. Nis je imao vidljivost nedovoljnu za neprecizni prilaz kojim je opremljen. Niko od nadleznih ne cita "Garazu".
@dragan, verovao ili ne, ATIS radi na test. Mislim da je 122,925 ali jos nije publikovano.